Some ideas on Siege War

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  • nice. read the complet answer ! ..answer to ppl who are gate keepers. but hey. you are right. like allways.

    Why does it matter who are peaps? Gate keepers, fighters, farmers all are eaqual if you dont think so then you have some problems. Same as all are eaqual humand beings be it if you have t15 gear or t5 quest gear. But its only my poin of view.


    This discussin is not about who said what or insults. Its about how to make SW more playable for all.

    One way thinking is not working.

  • One way thinking is not working.

    but that is what you are doing. because a lot of ppl want changes in siege. and you defend the siege how it is in moment.


    Why does it matter who are peaps? Gate keepers, fighters,

    it matters, because i will not support gate keepers ! but every fighter !

  • One way thinking is not working.

    but that is what you are doing. because a lot of ppl want changes in siege. and you defend the siege how it is in moment.


    Why does it matter who are peaps? Gate keepers, fighters,

    it matters, because i will not support gate keepers ! but every fighter !

    Daam you realy dont understand. Again you trying to choose one role in sw and that it. Other dont exist? Its not like that, who do upgrades, who farm towers, who defend castle, who trap, who drive rams or who shoot catas and many more? There is more in sw then just smashing each other in a fields.

    Im just trying to make this discussion to more productive.


    Ch/m gate guard is not a problem like here all crying about it.


    Better we would discuss about rewards, class balance and maybe new sw scroll, more powerfull but more expensive also. Maybe some new trap or baricades or some flying staff. Anything that could make sw fun for all not few head smashers. Let imagination fly and maybe some of GM will like some ideas and it will be put in game in a future.


    Btw nero from what guild you are im curious?

  • There is more in sw then just smashing each other in a fields.

    Im just trying to make this discussion to more productive.

    you do not. but you are right there are more things. but siege has become complete without any fights. only fcap and holding gates. that is what the ppl want so say. so you need to change that. and also the fix warlocks and knights. bring back mages



    Btw nero from what guild you are im curious?

    is that important ?

  • You cant just look at balancing from the high-end perspective, you want sw to be fun, and yet do you think that people enjoy getting shot down before even getting a chance to react from a wl that can run at over 200% speed, and hit them for 300+x4 in a matter of seconds? It's no wonder so many people made k/m alts just to counter this, or simply rerolled to wl/ch themself.

    You´re right and i don´t only look for balancing just from high-end.

    The only thing i said was - don´t look at David vs Goliath.


    If you want to look for balancing - look for teams and how they can get more equal also with different classes.

    Teams - this is also what SW is designed for - I´m also not asking for dungeons to be playable/beatable for 2 players - just because I only want to play with one friend...


    If you want to balance 5 vs 5 - it´s strictly not possible.

    If you have 5 Wl/Ch vs 5 M/x - the Wls will win.

    But if yo have 5 R/Pr against 5 Wl/Ch probably the Rogues will win (simply for capping).

    And if 2 of the 5 Wls swap to Scouts - maybe this will turn the tide.

    And the next thing - Equal 4 players on both teams but in one an additional skilled Wl/Champ with 800k Lp PvP gear and the other team with an additional Wl/Ch with a half finished PvE gear and 160k Lp... I think the outcome is obvious...


    But there is no balancing for such situations... it´s simply not possible except you make wars totally different.

    One way (and i would also appreciate this one) would be everyone who enters gets white gear without stats etc (similar to Arcanium) - then only numbers and skill will count - but will never happen, think about it, it´s Greedforge we´re talking about - nobody would have to make PvP gear anymore...


    Fun can mean diferent things. One can get fun fighting all sw while other geting fun even from defending. As Cenre said 1 shot is not fun at all.

    No one shot is no fun and nobody is talking against it - but there are ways against this. Make PvP gear, use wisdom-stats, play a proper class and not the beloved M/W,...

    And i also don´t have anithing against defending - interuppting tornados, fighting around the gates, stealing back towers - but invisible automatic alts behind the gates and 2 active players just destroying towers so that alts don´t get visible... is no fun at all.


    Think this way. What you will do in if you would be in that lower guild and fighting vs Top guild. Would you skip sw and afk at roof?

    Yes - afk for 10min at Roof (if i need the merrits) or not even join and do something more worthy (daylies, titlequest, mirror-world, preparing for dungeon,...)



    So situations is very diferent. Top guilds see it moustly from one point while others moustly just trying to survuive.

    Again nothing against trying to survive or also defend - if it´s still a fight. But "fighting" against automatic alts is no fun - and will never be.



    So lets stop talking about how to make sw quicker. Insteed lets talk how to make it fightable for more players around here.

    I´m not talking about making it quicker . I´m talking about making it more fun (and more reasonable). I have great fun when there´s a war over 60 min with intense fights, cool tactics, if people trying something new and special which you don´t expect. Where i don´t have fun is when I´m waiting 1h... Or if a totally inferior guild just caps tower at the ent with Rogues and you can´t do anything against it...



    Ch/m gate guard is not a problem like here all crying about it.


    Better we would discuss about rewards, class balance and maybe new sw scroll, more powerfull but more expensive also. Maybe some new trap or baricades or some flying staff. Anything that could make sw fun for all not few head smashers. Let imagination fly and maybe some of GM will like some ideas and it will be put in game in a future.

    Actually the SW right now has 2 big problems to call it siege or war

    - gate keeping alts (often automated)

    - tower capping


    We can also discuss about every other thing - but why not fix first the biggest problems and also the easier ones?

    And about the GM thing - dream on...

    GMs are unsalaried people, often players themselfs - nobody at Greedforge, Product Team or even Runewaker listens at them. Neither when they find critical bugs in new dungeons (remeber suntemple NPCs being not elite? ), nor if they find some other critical stuff and certainly not if they are proposing something about SW - a part of PvP which is ignored by RW and GF for years...


    Sorry if i didn´t read all the last posts and missed something important..

    Edited once, last by kako88 ().

  • Some simple changes to the guards might help with some of this.

    I'll go back to my 'have them see invisible idea' and include Escape in that. Also, when a tower is being taken, everybody knows, the message goes across the battlefield ... well everybody except for the guards charged with defending the tower, for some reason they just stand there, I mean wtf? So the tower taker candied or used holy aura or something else; are the guards just going to ignore them as they take the tower, seriously? Oh, look, a Ram, lets beat on that while some low level takes our tower, really? A Warden pet? sure, it's way more important to attack the pet and not the Warden taking the tower, cause reasons...

  • Corwin's suggestion would do a lot to counter rogues (especially R/P) being so OP with the new ToS item setskill. Also make the "small" guards a bit stronger, right now they are 1 shot for pretty much anybody even in full pvp gear. Plus they can be pulled 1-by-1, make all 3 guards have chain aggro so that they actually serve a purpose and aren't just a free 50 merits each.


    Earlier topics in this thread :


    How can anyone say that Wl/Ch is not OP? The worst part about it is not being able to deal super high damage very often (many other classes can do this) or having tons of hp (many other classes can do this) but the speed. Wls moving at such fast speeds is super unfair because it causes a lot of clipping, and often you can not see the Wl approaching because the servers don't update the position correctly (I play with 120FPS and 31MS, and this problem is extremely noticeable). Like, when you use lightning on one, it is rooted in a completely different position to where it was when you casted the root skill. This also means that the Wl can use spells within range while other classes can't because their position is not updated properly. Put a long CD on speed skills or make them non-stackable with things like spellweaver pots.


    Fix knight mdmg item setskills.


    Nothing majorly wrong with gate alts as it is. It's only a problem for people/guilds who feel like they are entitled to a win v lower oppo because they have more points than them. Most guilds will have 1x Ch/M for a single gate and 1 p/wl only, so there is a counter (scrolls). I think it would perhaps be a good idea to put a 15s "grace period" where you can't cast CH/M skill high-energy barrier on the same target. This would mean that if 1x ch/m buff got outdamaged, a 2nd ch/m could not cast it until the buff would normally expire. This also wouldn't affect PvE.


    Finally : ROGUES. R/D DoT is honestly brilliant (if you play it) or one of the dumbest things in game (if oppo is r/d). I don't understand why this DoT cap is so much higher than others (if there is a cap), and if a rogue has ToS ISS then they can just buff up and basically put a 150-200k DoT on every player in a pretty big radius. R/K stun i've mentioned in another thread, reduce it to 4.5s (half the time) to move it in line with other classes' stuns.

  • Sums it up pretty well.

    I would just double all cap times to just not allow fcaps anymore. Then people would actually need to fight to get a tower.

  • - Make guards fight the occupier first and let them see invisible units

    - double the cap time

    - make towers only capable when guards are down


    --> everything has the same result, goal and reason and nearly everybody wants something in this direction


    Let´s see if GF/RW ever hears something about this and ever implements even one of these things...

    Maybe Phelan or Celes want to say something about it...

  • I personally favor only the "let them see invisible units" part from this suggestion and want to have the possibility of fcaps. "Pure fighters" can go 6 vs 6 arena any moment. If they can find oppo that is. This actually shows how popular the "fight only" approach really is.


    But I do fully support the last part. Sarkas did encourage us to post feedback. Let's hope to see the effect.

  • Fighting is not truly represented in the arena due to spawn immune and the indifference of class and gear. Also i think 6v6 is broken and doesnt actually work properly anymore since they changed the matching requirements a few years back. Double cap times is probably a bit too much, with all speed buffs you can already keep interupting people at mid quite easily with a few players, Changing it to 20secs should be fine i think. K/p might still be able to cap, but would need at least 5minutes between each cap, and could easily be purged anyway.

  • K/p might still be able to cap, but would need at least 5minutes between each cap, and could easily be purged anyway.

    Might be - but interesting for this topic (at least for me) is only the one last cap in the last minute.

    And 20s - how long does Invisible potion work? + immune + /priest + serenstum/laor + maybe other buffs ?

  • Ah yes purge - because everybody has 6 purge-priests with enough gear and etherything to not fall down onehit ...

    So you need specially 1 class against 1 other...

    That reminds me off something... was it about Wl/Ch countered by K/M? :/ No wait, can´t be...


    So on one side we should not need to play some special classes to counter others - but on the other hand we should? :/


    Of course you´re right with your suggestion but still feels like measuring with two standards or not? And how does this work with 5 vs 5 - or is this just for high end again?

    ;)

  • The difference is, P/R is just a buff alt. Nobody is forcing you to play P/R simply so you can actually play and get any sort of enjoyment from SW, as you have to do if your opposing guild has several Wl/Chs. (and btw, K/M is only a counter if they can actually hit them. Which, is pretty much impossible unless they severely mess up, because the server is on their side - as I mentioned before, even if the Wl "looks" to be in range it's not actually in range and thus you can't use skills on it).

  • Alts of magic sucks yes, but p/r is very viable in many ways. not just for purging K/m is only a decent counter to wl because of a bug, should that change at any point it just becomes another class for a wl to take down. Also no one is forcing anyone to play classes to counter warlocks in any shape or form, just dont expect to kill a warlock playing a warrior/priest. . You shouldn't need 1 class to balance another out, but even with a 20second cap time, you limit capping to one class, from literally tons of others that it was before, One class vs one class seems preety reasonable to me, not to mention how few k/p there already is in siege that are actually playing, not just peoples buff alts. Finally dont forget that with 20s cap time you also limit the buffs that a player can use to run to the tower, adding more ways to interupt a fearcap in general.


    Midgame siege is totally broken already anyway, it needs way more then class nerfs to change anything. The way the point structure works now and with how few "big" guilds there are, means that small guilds are often paired up to big guilds with no chance of winning, hence why a lot of them are using ch/m alts. Big guilds dont want to fight gates, and small guilds probably dont want to fight big guilds with no chance of winning. This is 1 of the bigger issues in siege that should be addressed before even class balancing.

  • Yep just a level 50 alt with ~10k Lp

    and now a small simulation of what will happen:


    Rogue hide to tower - immune, start cap, invis pot, herald immune - 1s before invis stops -> throw, priest alt is dead

    Thanks for your comment :thumbup:

  • Well he can't kill the priest alt if it's hidden behind an invisi tower a small distance from the tower itself. Then you can use Holy Aura (5s) which is plenty of time to use purge.

  • If you use a level 50 p/r seems like your problem not anyone elses. Half the reason people cant purge invis caps is because of this. Not to mention you play a PRIEST, you have Holy Aura, even if the guy invis caps.


    Let them cap for 14 secs > move alt towards tower > holy aura > purge. Simple.


    And again, fearless being 15s, aura 6, then add on lag and other variables. Chances are you dont even need to purge a r/p anymore. Certainly getting an invis cap on a trapped tower would be almost impossible without full immune, maybe scouts would actually be viable to stopping the caps.