New siege war rules : improvement or impoverishment

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  • Ainz, Torkilsd, try to open your mind and some honesty...


    Ainz you're able to jump from Belin to Anand, or Buruk to Asachi in two or three steps... When you arrive on the team which is trying to take tower in 15 seconds, like you say, you kill 1st the heal, 2nd the dps, then you jump in two steps far away and you leave the tank (let's say a knight/mage) alone, time he gets stuck, then you came back full speed full burst on him... If he wants to fight you he disengages the big guard fight, the big guard reset and come back to 100%. This fight was on Belin, now you run on Anand, then you run on Knin, etc. etc.


    When you're chained, stuck in spider web of the guard, it is like pigeons shooting. Dare you deny it ?

    first: please do the same :)
    second: there are many ways to defeat a wl/ch. there are many classes that could stun, kill or have other counterplays (even if i played the wl/ch perfectly, which i don't). if i solo can interrupt my opponent and didn't get killed, my oponent is too weak.


    do you really think you're playing in the right scoring region when a single enemy player can defeat your entire guild? really?


    Quote from Renovatio

    Torskilsd, ok, we can try killing the guard with fearless... but enemy is here and once the guards are killed they use fearless and kill you... Two minutes later you come back with your fearless, the enemy is waiting for you, if you're sligtly inferior in fight, your chance taking the tower is something little...

    you have 2 options: cry about not having a save-win anymore or think about a strategy how you can still win (and yes, there is almost always one).


    you say we should open our minds but all you accept is "i can't inviscap anymore, i'll lose". do you really think now you can only win with high-end gear? that was never the case and it is not now.



    Quote from Renovatio

    The modification favors the strong at the expense of the weak. The imbalance is growing.

    The modification favors those who can be tactical and play their classes at the expense of those who can't. everyone now has the same chances. sw is now much fairer (not perfect, but a step in the right direction).


    Quote from Renovatio

    Damn it is so obvious ! Is it so hard to admit it ?

    ...




    yeah the change about the pairing was trash... oh wait there wasn't a change. idk what you wanna say with those pairings... it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

  • yeah the change about the pairing was trash... oh wait there wasn't a change. idk what you wanna say with those pairings... it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

    Your argument is that the score will evoluate with changes and the pairing will be better, low score will play with low score, high score with high score...


    It can't as long as there is so few guilds to register... Between the first guild playing and the first not playing there is only two dozens of guild...


    The gear doesn't count, only the gameplay and the tactics, that's what we all should understand. So why have you ranked and plussed your weapon so hight ? I wonder because listening you it is superfluous !


    || Bad faith is evident here.

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • yeah the change about the pairing was trash... oh wait there wasn't a change. idk what you wanna say with those pairings... it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

    Your argument is that the score will evoluate with changes and the pairing will be better, low score will play with low score, high score with high score...


    It can't as long as there is so few guilds to register... Between the first guild playing and the first not playing there is only two dozens of guild...

    So your proof is the exception to the rule?


    31 of the last 50 sw's from us were against guilds with 5k or more

    there are also 6 sw's against guilds between 2 and 5k that were significantly stronger than some guilds that are over 5k (because they just didn't fcap)


    oh and fun fact: there were also 2 sw's against 1 - 1,5k guilds that were also stronger than a few of 5k+ guilds :D


    that were 74% guilds in score range and you're cherry picking the 1/4 were the score fails. yeah... great evidence.


    why are you complaining? the ranking gives a guild nothing, except a 74% chance of an opponent in its score range (ok...for some, this is apparently also a virtual p**** comparison, but if you're really more interested in your score than in a fair fight, you didn't understand this game...). if there are 2/3 weak guilds in the point range, the chance of a worthy opponent is only 25%. if there are only 1/3 weak guilds in this point range, you have already doubled your chances.

    Yes, some weak guilds will have to lose points for this, which other, stronger guilds will then receive. so what?


    I don't understand your point. I would like to, but all you do is what you accuse me of: being narrow-minded and allow no other opinion


    Quote from Renovatio

    The gear doesn't count, only the gameplay and the tactics, that's what we all should understand. So why have you ranked and plussed your weapon so hight ? I wonder because listening you it is superfluous !

    if that were the case, no one would ever have put a dime into this game.

    high end gear gives you many advantages but it is no guarantee of victory.


    I myself have graded my gear that high because a) I can and b) I compensate for my own inability. that's not sarcasm or anything... I'm not the best wl/ch and I don't have the best reflexes... good gear can often help you out of trouble, but it's no guarantee that you'll win. i've been defeated by many opponents (witches, villains, knights, keepers,...) in 1-1 situations and i've been defeated more often by better tactics and strategies.


    (btw: a high graded weapon isn't that important for wl/ch... the difference between t12+25 and t16+30 is about 3% for Severed Consciousness... I was still playing with t13 myself until 3 months ago :) )

    Quote from Renovatio

    || Bad faith is evident here.

    I don't understand your point. I would like to, but all you do is what you accuse me of: being narrow-minded and allow no other opinion

  • Well. T12+25 and t16+30 isnt a fair comparison. And the diff is quite a bit higher than that. (Roughly 15%) doesnt matter tho since in full burn most targets are dead with 4 severed or less.

    But j agree with ainz. You have the occasional low guild that you overrun. (Thats not changing no matter what the guards do)

    And the remaining SW are either fun or against fcap nabs. (by fcap nabs i mean guilds you dominate 58 out of 60 minutes yet tgey still sneak a win)

    And the only change i see, is that fcap nabs drop in points until they can fight properly again.

  • 60% of the intelligence is added as magic damage for severed. that means with about 200k int (which I have in sw about) that's 120k magic damage on top. whether my weapon then has 30k damage or 25k damage only makes up about 3.3% :) for all other skills, the weapon damage is of course significantly more (even around 20%... like with other DPS classes and their weapons )


    btw you can play wl/ch in tos as dps without weapon and still deal more than 60% of your normal dmg with weapon (maybe i tested it a few times involuntarily after i forgot to equip my weapon after the class change... which brings us back to my own inability xD

  • My very last try to explain what several of us tried to say :


    This change favors the strong at the expense of the weak and grows the imbalance. It would have been better to find a way that do no grow the imbalance to keep the maximum of siege wars the more interesting possible the hour long. We don't care about winning or losing we care about playing and having fun.


    Whenever you talk about who will win in the end, it's irrelevant to my point.


    That's all folks !


    (And i think you have perfectly understood what we say !)

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • you didn't EXPLAIN anything... you claim those things and give us no evidence (only subjective feelings shared by a minority).


    I also have no evidence for my assertions... but I can at least explain with logic why I assume it

    But I'm not saying that my claims are facts, unlike you (although the majority thinks like me). like grumpdaddy said: we will see.

    Quote from Renovatio

    This change favors the strong at the expense of the weak and grows the imbalance

    i claim that it hasn't any impact on that. strong guild are still strong and weak guilds are still weak but they can't unfairly win anymore. so you'll have a higher chance of more equal fights which also means more fun for both sides.

  • Soooo.

    Its kinda hard to gain back a tower at your own side once its taken and your opponent starts to have upgrades.

    For our SW today we were the stronger guild in roughly the same rating. 4-5k points on both sides.

    Since advocate for playing a fairly aggressive, it was easy for us to push back to the enemys castle. From there on it got quite hard to dislodge us again.

    Maybe a nerf to the tower farming capabilities are a good idea so the disbalance in raw fighting strength does not get out of hand so fast.

    That gives your opponent a larger window of fighting back.

    Although i have to say, our opponent was uncoordinated and besides one really good attack (they got their right tower and deffed it up instantly) they never really came at us in a full group. So it was kinda easy to just farm them 1 by 1. But thats a lesson you need to learn fighting in a mmo. You're nothing alone.

  • Ainz, we have largely explained things in a cartesian way. Meisjustme far better that me.


    What you call your logical demonstration is also an assertion i can resume : " Gear doesn't really matter. With good tactics you can win fights against stronger than you ". That is not false but until a certain point. It was already difficult to stand in front of your team before, it is more difficult than ever !


    If the game is fun and interesting why not, but when you are dominated and all the game resume itself in a long fight to control a least a tower and succeed to upgrade it is more arena pvp 6/6 that siege war.


    Torkilsd admit just above " its kinda hard to gain back a tower at your own side once its taken and your opponent starts to have upgrades ". That's what i say all along this post since the beginning... (And with my proposition of a kind of holy guard you could at least keep one tower and secure a minimum of merits for upgrade...)


    Once again you speak of winning when we speak of playing with fun. We never contest the need to prevent that some (a few minority) unfairly win by caping coming from nowhere. We never contest this. We just say it was no need and a bad idea to impoverish the possibilities and variety of play and to grow imbalance in favor of the strongest...


    It is lowering fun and can be source of boredom after a time. And this last sentence is just an opinion, that's true ! (But people who not express themselves here for they have quit confirm this feeling. I know four of them of my former guild.)


    Finally to say that you represent the majority and we the minority is abusive. We are at least three to have expressed ourselves in a cartesian way on the same position and you are mainly three to contradict us regularly. This is neither a poll nor a vote. This last argument is not fair. You are certainly familiar with the concept of silent majority. I don't think people with end-end-end-game gear (weapon +30/T17 for example) are representative of this silent majority. On the other hand, they are undoubtedly GameForge's core marketing target, of its flash sales, etc.


    PS : lol it was my very very last try to explain. ;-p

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • This thread has been insane lol

    It's like if the topic was how expensive cosmetics have got but everyone is arguing about jewels prices. Which would be fair and still have to do with the currency but not the actual topic.

    I've yet to read a single thing here where there would be any real difference from 1k to 100m hp guards to strait up no guards. In every single scenario from every single person here the same end result would happen even if guards were completely removed.
    It was always either forge buffs/numbers/strength/stratagy/class balance but I didn't read a single post that said failed specifically because of the guard.


    Can anyone here tell me if we removed guards(nerfing them might as well) how that somehow helps lesser guilds? You still have to fight, get buffs, break the really high hp gates that no one is complaining about.
    At least warlocks have to deal with the guards, imagine if they were just 1 shot or completely removed? I don't see how that is anything but worse for weaker guilds, 1 warlock zipping all over capping everything, what would they do about that? At least you can build defense right now.

  • Yes i agree with bakken.

    But something that needs to be addressed is the disbalance through merits.

    If you do not defend your hometowers you are in a bad spot quite quickly.

    Coordinated defenses should work quite well now, but if you cant manage that. Well. You are pretty much fricked .....

  • Yes i agree with bakken.

    But something that needs to be addressed is the disbalance through merits.

    If you do not defend your hometowers you are in a bad spot quite quickly.

    Coordinated defenses should work quite well now, but if you cant manage that. Well. You are pretty much fricked .....

    that's right.

    it should be possible to capture at least one tower easily back.

    f.e. it should be possible to place your guild honor guard on an enemy tower and still be able to captrue it (which actually isn't ... maybe bug?). that would help to capture at least a single tower to farm merits. if the enemy is still strong enough to fight the whole guild + 4 guards then its fair they'll win.

    that would be (I think) an improvement that everyone would benefit from.

  • Perhaps the solution would be to unbalance the guards on each side. If a tower is taken next to your castle, it's not 2 small guards and the big one who pop but 4 small ones. The defensive team can kill the little ones easily, earn 200 merits and try to take back the tower. If the defensive team take it back, it's the big guard and the 2 little ones who repop... At the middle Knin and Hilot it stays neutral.


    Not sure of this idea but the offensive team, which is dominating will have some harder work to fullfill, the defensive team can hope farm merits and upgrade...

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • That would make things easier.

    Honestly its quite hard to take a defendet tower against a guild and possibly 3 guards+honour guard when you are not yet fully upgraded. So that makes it a hardpoint to capture by design.

    Could be a worthy addition.

    And once taken, the side should have some home advantadge to retake a tower. (Besides faster spawn obviously)

  • Dude, rogue is not that hard to spell.

  • Ugh. So I sat here and read all of this. Reno keeps just saying the same thing and those complaining about the changes are those that were relying on the easy cap at the end to win. Literally the only people complaining are those that wanted the easy stolen win at the end.



    You're wrong. This is better. It makes your skills, your gear, your strategies... actually matter. What is the point of a struggling sw for 59 mins if its all decided by some invisicap bs in the last minute?


    Yea stronger guilds have the advantage... THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BY HAVING PUT THE TIME/MONEY/EFFORT INTO BEING STRONGER!!


    Find a sport or board game or card game ... in any country... ever... that has a rule that renders the first 99% of the match irrelevant because one move at the end can win it for all no matter what.


    Doesn't exist. Why you think it should here, is beyond me. It was an exploit, and now its fixed. Get better or shut up.



    Now, understand, I am one of the weaker players. I have like 70k hp and 150k pat buffed. I get my asshanded to me in sw everytime. As I should, because I don't have the gear to stand up against the stronger player. Why? Because i didn't put the time/money/effort into being as strong or stronger than they.


    You don't blame Peyton Manning for being a good QB, Blame the linebackers that couldnt stop him, or the man to man coverage that failed to intercept or tackle.


    The points will balance out better now and strong vs strong and weak vs weak will be the norm.



    Guilds have been getting points they didn't earn by exploiting a bug that allows them to cap without being stopped. Obviously that wasn't supposed to be allowed to begin with. And to think it was supposed to be that way by design, is nothing but pure ignorance.





    Bottom line, if you can't win without this fcap bs, you don't deserve the win.

  • Strings, at this day, i have played in 6 different guilds sw for many many years and it was never in a guild whom strategy was fear-invisible-caping at the end.


    I have even build a gear of priest/rogue to purge (or try to purge) at the last minute if needed.


    Once again you say you have read but you didn't. The purpose of those who have written is not against preventing the final fear-invisible-caping. The purpose is to keep variety, fun, and prevent boredom.


    Some have very well understood what we say and have realized the difficulty coming with the change. I will not waste my time with you for you are distorting our point.

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • A draw is much more likely for evenly matches guilds since you mostly bash in your heads over the middle.

    And noone really can cap a tower in the last few seconds.

    Yesterday it was hard for both sides to really gain a strong foothold over the other.

    And attacking 2 towers at once mostly meant just being wiped on both fronts.

    Quite fun to play to be honest.

    (Even tho we messed up our defense and had our gate blown up. But we managed a draw in the middle)

  • My very last try to explain what several of us tried to say :

    We understand what you are saying. You aren't understanding the rest of us. Strong guild vs. weak guild=strong guild wins. Isn't that how it should be? In a real world conflict, strong country defeats weak country. This is called siege WAR for a reason. There are 3 things weak guilds can do short term to get it balanced out.

    1) Recruit

    2) Recruit

    3) Recruit


    Oh yeah- and quest together, run dungeons together, and help each other with gear.