New siege war rules : improvement or impoverishment

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  • Holy moly that was a post

    Instead of every single siege only mattering about the last 30 seconds now everyone has to fight and guilds will reflect their points more correctly.
    ALL the problems listed above about warlocks/speed/buffs/strats doesn't change at all, they were all equally problems before and still will be.

    HONESTLY with this change the 'top op guilds' with all the warlocks that everyone is complaining about will get more points now without random lower guilds ninja capping and taking points. This will separate the guilds more and help lowbies match up with other lowbies and keep the warlocks playing with themselves mostly. I believe this will INCREASE participation not decrease, completely disagree with meisjustme

  • And after all these lengthy posts, all we really have is opinions and conjectures. Let's all take a deep breath and after a month or so, post your experiences.


    It seems that every time GF and RW do a little tweaking, the forum fills with doomsday prophesies. If it's a problem the way it is now, we can bitch about it knowledgeably and GF can switch it around some more.

  • So, the main problem with these changes is that they don't balance the game but they make the rift between small and large guilds worse. However, there are not enough of us who play siege war to hope to come across a guild of your level on a regular basis... Unbalanced wars are painful or uninteresting for both teams.

    The game is set up to match high-score guilds together and low-score guilds together as much as possible. This thread reminds me of the recent thread where the OP insisted that Macros should be banned from siege because he didn't want to learn how to use them. Endgame players switch guilds. Recruit a couple. Anyone can build good gear. It's about more than diamonds, and if you get enough gold you can buy the refining gems and other things using other peoples' diamonds.

    Hey i do not need to recruit couple of endgame players ! There are dozens of them in the guild i play with. Someone can carry about others and not see the world with " me i " short thinking...


    And after all these lengthy posts, all we really have is opinions and conjectures. Let's all take a deep breath and after a month or so, post your experiences.


    It seems that every time GF and RW do a little tweaking, the forum fills with doomsday prophesies. If it's a problem the way it is now, we can bitch about it knowledgeably and GF can switch it around some more.

    LOL... In three or fours years the tweaking... It is not only opinions... Since the changes i know personaly several players that quit...


    Big thanks to Meisjustme for your awsome post, clear and analytical ! Couldn't have say better. Yes it is an impoverishement and after 10 minutes everyone knows how the war will end...


    PS : they could also debug the stacking ISS of knight/mage... in the priority list ;-p

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • Quote from Renovatio

    Since the changes i know personaly several players that quit

    at asteria some people i know personaly who quit months/years ago because of inviscaps and unequal sws are considering starting again. so some guys go, others come back. as grumpdaddy says we will see in a few months (and i would still put my hand on fire for the change to result in more fun, more interesting and more challenging sw's)


    Yes it is an impoverishement and after 10 minutes everyone knows how the war will end...

    you mean before this patch when you fight against an guild that inviscaps?

    fight and think about tactics how you can win. it's really not difficult. many fights that were very one-sided could still be turned around.


    if a guild loses only because rogues can no longer inviscap, that guild is just wrong in its scoring region.

  • Yes it is an impoverishement and after 10 minutes everyone knows how the war will end...

    you mean before this patch when you fight against an guild that inviscaps?

    To be honest guilds that inviscaps at the tight end were very few... I will not say the names but it was a minority...


    On the tactics to win fights etc. you dream i think... Of course fight's tactics count but you know them too... When fight is equal or you're a little inferior, once you have lost your towers and you can't upgrade attack/defense while enemy have done it, well it is finished.


    You can dream of your comrades coming back, they will come back for one or two days and once they'll see that 9 times out of 10 there is no fight no suspense, no nothing, because people stop after 10 minutes they will go back from where they come back...


    This move will be loss of players the ones quitting now and the ones you hope they come back...


    Try to be honest, this move goes in the way you love, well nice for you. But it doesn't mean your arguments are valid for the others...


    The best proof of it is that alternate ways to prevent the last minutes inviscaps does not satisfy you... Well, you want to kill and kill for one hour surrounding the enemy castle... Enemy will be on roof !

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • i wouldn't say that... there were ~2-4 guilds that used inviscap to it's max but there were also ~10 guilds that used inviscap to win (not with 6 rogues but enough to win without fighting). Since such SW's are a pain in the a**, we often did not even compete against such guilds. So far we haven't really had a lot of fights that were worth it. But when people are forced to fight, it is significantly more fun than fighting against gates and automated alts for an hour.


    fights where the opponents are inferior are not really exciting either, thats right. with inviscaps, the sw's aren't just "not really exciting", they're so annoying that hardly any of the otherwise enthusiastic pvp players feel like playing.

    btw THAT was the main reason why pvp player quit rom in the last few years and since this is fixed some might come back.


    Quote from Renovatio

    Try to be honest, this move goes in the way you love, well nice for you. But it doesn't mean your arguments are valid for the others...


    The best proof of it is that alternate ways to prevent the last minutes inviscaps does not satisfy you...

    yeah, i love the way it is. but i also liked the way it was a year ago where it was enough to pull the guards away to capture the tower. i would also like a couple of other ways. but hey... all reasonable ways to stop inviscap come down to the same thing: a few will complain about it. and yes... it's just a few. the majority here in the forum, as well as in discord and ingame, think the solution is great.


    Unfortunately, I still don't understand how taking towers without being able to kill der guards and hold/defend them is even remotely a strategy or tactic. with each captured tower the enemy get at least as many merits and in the situations you complain about where a wl/ch interrupts you, you would have died before the patch too... but would have given the enemy 5 times as many merits as you did you got. tactically, inviscaps are the worst thing you can do during the sw. unless you end up using them to win.


    Quote from Renovatio

    Well, you want to kill and kill for one hour surrounding the enemy castle... Enemy will be on roof !

    if they are weak... maybe. but theres no difference to before that patch. if their understanding of the game is big enough they'll find ways to beat us.



    Quote from Renovatio

    On the tactics to win fights etc. you dream i think... Of course fight's tactics count but you know them too... When fight is equal or you're a little inferior, once you have lost your towers and you can't upgrade attack/defense while enemy have done it, well it is finished.

    we were defeated many times or had a draw even though the opponent was initially inferior. we had sw's against f.e. anakrasra in which we had all upgrades within the first 20 minutes and anak only started 15 minutes later and finished at minute ~50. in the end it was a draw.


    in many other situations we were in a bad position for the first few minutes and then managed to win. THAT is what makes a sw. THAT is what is fun. And that's exactly what will happen more often when guilds really think about strategies and no longer prioritize such senseless maneuvers as churning out towers.



    fight, analyze your opponent, find his weakness, use it to your advantage.

    and not: run stupidly through the area, take towers that you lose again after 15s, give your opponent merits and win in the end, although you neither know the opponent nor can you play your own class.

  • Ohhh you can also kill guards using fearless. And capture it 2 min later using fearless. Respawn timer is still set at 5 mins so thats some room to work with.

    But you have to fight for it.

  • And after all these lengthy posts, all we really have is opinions and conjectures. Let's all take a deep breath and after a month or so, post your experiences.


    It seems that every time GF and RW do a little tweaking, the forum fills with doomsday prophesies. If it's a problem the way it is now, we can bitch about it knowledgeably and GF can switch it around some more.

    Actually best post so far. We all have our own individual experiences with siege and therefor have our own opinions how this will effect it.
    It's not often that we are pretty split on something like this, only time will tell who was right here.

    I change my mind my bet is on no real difference at all lol



    I also have to ask, to anyone that can't kill guards that's complaining right now- What the heck did you even do in siege before then? Could you even destroy buildings? Did you even get forge buffs?

  • Don't make the discussion stupid ! It is not killing the guard, it is killing the guard before Ainz kills you ! If you don't see the difference what the heck did you even do in siege before then ? It is not a slighty difference. I'am sure you see the point.


    PS : And Ainz, i play siege every day " 2-4 guilds using inviscap to its max + 10 guilds using to win " makes 12-14 guilds. There's not so many guilds playing every day !

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

    Edited 2 times, last by Renovatio ().

  • After reading all this I still think that to balance the sw you have to balance the classes.
    The current changes benefit the strongest in war.
    old players... left the game for various reasons...
    In the game, sw is not exclusive to strong guilds, and everyone should be able to enjoy and try to take towers and have a fair war. As it stands right now to take towers at a NON-PRO level, you need a tank, a healer and some dps, so a lot of people are going to jump right in and look.
    I would like to know if those super equipment that some with weapons carry to t17....how many alters have they used...how many accounts??...or have you used the credit card?, there are people who cannot even afford the hours nor the money that entails.
    You shouldn't set the standard for something that is for everyone so high, because that only causes a few to have fun.
    The SW are very unbalanced, each character plays a role and with these changes you kill a few roles, now you only have the strongest one. CONGRATULATIONS, making it worse is not possible...or is it=?

    El conocimiento nos hará libres!!;)



    Warrior_100 / knight_100 / Scout_100 / Rogue_100 / Mage_60 / Priest_60

  • my alt uses either an old t14 crossbow. Or a new t13 dagger. Both combis take me less than 10 seconds to burn a full tower.

    Now. I get that some people cant do that. But maybe. Just maybe, stop crying and learn how to do it?

    Now, ofc. Killing guards before an enemy kills you is tough. Thats by design. A guarded tower should not be free for the taking. You can use fearless to fight the guards. And you can use it again 2 min later to take the tower jf you havent already.

    But suddenly a fearless is used to fight. Not to fcap. Which is a huge improvement.

    It is also by design that players should not be able to do everything by themselves. When i do SW with a guild at like 4k points i still look that my attacking side has tank, dps and at least 1 heal with them. That was always the case. That shouldnt be a new concept to anyone.

    If you are alone then your points are low anyways and down there its mostly draws. But yea. Sorry. An mmo is not optimized for weak solo players. You really dont matter to GF that much. Your not many. And your not the ones spending money. Sorry :)

  • 1º I have not insulted anyone, so do not insult me, I give my opinion like the others and I deserve the same respect
    2nd I stand with 500k life in war, so I know how to do something
    3rd I have played, I play and we will see if I will continue playing.
    4th I have since the 1st edition
    5º I KNOW VERY WELL AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE MADE THEIR TEAMS!!
    6º If you are not able to see that a rule or change benefits a few, in this case the strongest, and it is not objective, it is your problem.
    7º There are many who play in small guilds, with new people every other day, and everyone, EVERYONE, should have the same opportunities.
    8º There are more important problems in this game than a mere fix in a 1h war whose reward is very low, and YES, a class balance would be very good, much better than the change they just made.
    9º As the wars are right now, I'm considering stopping playing the game, for the simple and mere fact that I no longer have fun, the game is running out of incentives for me.

    El conocimiento nos hará libres!!;)



    Warrior_100 / knight_100 / Scout_100 / Rogue_100 / Mage_60 / Priest_60

  • Well. I dont see where i insulted anyone. But hey. Here we go, you will love that one for sure.


    I have 500k hp so i know what i do....

    I mean depends on your class. I dont expect a heal to solo guards. But a heal should never play alone, and they are in high demand everywhere.

    If you are a dps, with 500k hp. And you claim you know what to do, and have not figured out how to take a tower. Now sorry to burst your bubble. But you dont seem to know what to do.

    So if you read closly what i wrote above: stop crying and learn it. Gear obviously isnt a problem for you it seems.

    New people join your guild everyday or every other day? Good. So teach them how the game works. If they are below level 100 they are not the main focus of SW balancing tho. They have some jobs they can do. But the expectation that they should have a game winning impact on the SW is just wrong.

    Its about equal opportunity not equal outcome. They can easily level up and gear themselves and provide a much higher impact (opportunity) but they should not be able to just go to a tower and take it because inviscap is a thing (outcome)

    Those 2 get mixed up so often its annoying. Sorry. Affirmative action is BS in a game. You have equal opportunity. But you need either time or money to get to the outcome you desire.

    Expecting a game to give everyone the same outcome, regardless of their input. Thats something that does not work. The game was never made that way. (The SW changes do not affect that in any why tho)


    Play the SW. You will see the challenge of taking towers is much more fun now, since defense actually matters now. I still dont know why that should be a bad thing regardless of points/strength.

    Also, i checked the SW results yesterday. Below 300 points it was all draws.

    Some freak pairings that resultsd in obvious losses. 20k vs 900 points.

    But other than that is was a nice mix of win/loss and those were fought over battles. I like that look.

    Expecting that any 900 points guild should even consider winning against 20k i laughable and an insult to the higher guild.

    Class balance is easier said than done. Right now pvp is in a good spot. I play multiple classes over all 3 races. And there are quite a few things that work very well. There is not one completly broken class right now. Everything has strong counters and the interplay is quite fun. (Yes even warlocks have strong counters, and no, its not a KM)

    Regardless of class/race i chose to play, i never feel like i am underpowered against anything. (Well, maybe as mage, they really need a buff, not just for pvp tho. That class has been castrated and needs a rework)

    Well. If you already consider stopping before even learning the ropes of the new SW sorry mate. But then you wanted to stop anyways and you just found your excuse :)

  • In the game, sw is not exclusive to strong guilds, and everyone should be able to enjoy and try to take towers and have a fair war. As it stands right now to take towers at a NON-PRO level, you need a tank, a healer and some dps, so a lot of people are going to jump right in and look.

    i agree on that... EVERYONE should have the same chance to take a tower... not only rogues with inviscaps (every low guild without rogues was clearly at a disadvantage against equally strong guilds with a rogue


    on a "NON-PRO level" you'll need an dps char with basic gear. weapon t12+23, rings +23 and you'll burn the guards in 15s. man i tried it with an warden with lvl 98/99 gear and i needed less than that. every rogue, warrior, champ, scout (they should 1-hit them) do the same and even knights and mages can do that. if your dps char can't then i wonder what you're doin.


    Quote from Santacruz

    The SW are very unbalanced, each character plays a role and with these changes you kill a few roles, now you only have the strongest one. CONGRATULATIONS, making it worse is not possible...or is it=?

    I also agree with you. wl/ch should be significantly slower, knights should no longer be able to become completely immune. and many of the currently useless class combos should become playable. But that's another topic. this has nothing to do with the current change.

    no (meaningful) role was killed by the change. the rogue can no longer be misused for stupid things, which will sooner or later lead people to use him for tactical purposes again and not only as farm alt or easy-win-alt.

  • Ainz, Torkilsd, try to open your mind and some honesty...


    Ainz you're able to jump from Belin to Anand, or Buruk to Asachi in two or three steps... When you arrive on the team which is trying to take tower in 15 seconds, like you say, you kill 1st the heal, 2nd the dps, then you jump in two steps far away and you leave the tank (let's say a knight/mage) alone, time he gets stuck, then you came back full speed full burst on him... If he wants to fight you he disengages the big guard fight, the big guard reset and come back to 100%. This fight was on Belin, now you run on Anand, then you run on Knin, etc. etc.


    When you're chained, stuck in spider web of the guard, it is like pigeons shooting. Dare you deny it ?


    Torskilsd, ok, we can try killing the guard with fearless... but enemy is here and once the guards are killed they use fearless and kill you... Two minutes later you come back with your fearless, the enemy is waiting for you, if you're sligtly inferior in fight, your chance taking the tower is something little...


    We don't ask you to say the fearless-invisible-caps at the end was a good thing, we just ask to aknowledge this change makes the game harder when you're inferior, even slightly...


    The modification favors the strong at the expense of the weak. The imbalance is growing.


    Damn it is so obvious ! Is it so hard to admit it ?


    At least my points are those :

    - the guards should not reset life when they come back to tower...

    - it is clear it is an impoverishment of variety in the game, the only way to go is to fight and dominate at least on one tower. If you can't succeed in it, whatever you try, then you're doomed... - you have no tower, the enemy upgrade and not you. You're really doomed for sure ! Go to roof...

    - this change (except the impoverishment which substracted fun) could be viable if we were 60 guilds fighting every evening... But we are less than twelve...



    Last evening siege board 7 first lines :

    Divinity (29 055) / Girlz (882)

    Unbreakable (16 575) / Aesir (3 997)

    Nemesisdivine (10 229) / Adscentori (642)

    Paradox (8 244) / Zipfelklastcher (3 157)

    Grauepanther (1 520) / Firimar (1 426)

    Wiss (1 197) / Chest (582)

    Hoax (1 178) / Stressfrei (495)


    Shall i comment ? Had you fun Ainz ? You can't say Stressfrei is a guild matching your prerequisite !


    I am open to all changes, i am not crying because - when people are in mood to play - i am in a guild that can deal easily with these new rules...


    But, however, i feel the need to keep those who were still playing, offering them some fun whatever their level, number and strategy.

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

    Edited 2 times, last by Renovatio ().

  • 100% warlocks are broken in siege right now, there absolutely needs to be a speed cap.
    The matching system totally does suck matching 30k points with under 1k


    What does any of that have to do with guards?

    They could have 10k or 100m hp, if your opponent is stronger and has warlocks you are gonna lose no matter what. The guards are completely irrelevant to that conversation.

  • You can fcap the tower with the second fearless since you know. Cast only takes 15 seconds once the guards are dead.

    Yea. The pairings suck right now. But that sucks for both side and has been a problem before the change as well. The fun is roughly the same as before. Burn the gate take they crystal. Takes roughly 10 minutes. That hasnt changed for any guild tho.

    If you want fun regardless of level and gear status go play arkanium. Ohhh wait. Thats dead too because noone actually thinks thats fun.....

  • The matching system totally does suck matching 30k points with under 1k

    Well i have no idea how to improve the matching system when there is less than twenty guilds playing... That's the point and that's why this conversation is relevant... To many people are gone because the game is too expensive in money or time and has no new content... That's why there was no need to increase imbalance in pvp and that is why the hope of a revival with these changes has very little chance of succeeding !


    Personally I no longer play the instance, indigestion of the same thing every night... And with less variety in the game I'm afraid I'll soon have indigestion with sw...


    PS : And yes you could win a siege against big wl/c, k/m, wd/w etc. just if you have a numerous team and they were few... Now two big wl/c can stand the all ground against a numerous team...

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • 2 big WL/ch will be in a higher points region tho. So. CHances are as long as the pairing is somewhat equal, your opponent has tbe same wl. Or counterclasses to warlocks.

    Your argument is always the same: i have a way stronger opponent so i think its unfair that they win a sw because they are stronger.

    So. Easy solution: get stronger yourself.


    Could the class balance be better? Yea. But its not too bad right now. There are so many good classes right now.


    Could the pairing be better? Yea. For sure. At least for the top 10 guilds it needs to be -10 instead of a -20 pairing. So that the top 10 guilds mostly fight among themselves.

    Most high end players dont mind fighting among themselves. It provides the most fun for anyone involved

    And below that the guild ratings overall are not so different anymore. There its anyones game.


    Now. Lets say the pairing is fixed: the chances of running into a warlock like ainz are rather low. Both guilds fight on the same grounds. Gear and skillwise. I dont see why the fcap change benefits either side then. The better one ought to win. Thats how it is supposed to be

  • The better one ought to win. Thats how it is supposed to be.

    I think we don't understand ourselves. It is not about to win or loose. It is about to play and have fun. If my argument is always the same yours too ! Be stronger !


    Yes the stronger should win at the end and that's why fearless-invisible-caping at the end had to be prevent.


    But yes also, the war should keep some interest the hour long that's why the weakest do not needed a strong handicap multiply by 10 when he can't upgrade castle's buff anymore and enemy does.


    Well I will try to translate Bossuet : " God laughs at men who deplore the effects whose causes they cherish "


    Have a good war Torkilsd and hope you're right ! Will see the effects in a few weeks. :*

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"