New siege war rules : improvement or impoverishment

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  • First let say the good things :

    - we are pleased to see that there is still some people working to try to improve the game...

    - it is definitively a good thing that war could not be won anymore by some rogues just taking towers fearless and invisible in the last minute...


    But let say also the bad things :

    - you should have long before and clearly annonced the changes you planned for we don't choose classes and build gear which are no more usefull or at least loose most of their interest. It is dishonest of you. I know you love make us buy diamants and build things which become unusefull but you should stop with this way of dealing with your faithfull customers...


    So are these new rules an improvement or an impoverishment of the game ?


    Well it seems it is an improvement if you play in a big guild with a good team and some powerfull characters able to kill fast enought the big guard...


    But if you are on a guild with no powerfull character then killing the big guard can be a real problem... Especially if the opposing team have a warlock/champion fast enough to come, whatever the tower you are attacking, and destroy your team while you're stuck with the big guard...


    You die, the big guard comes back to the tower and gets 100% of his life back. At least, with these new rules the guard should just heal himself like a character do regaining his hit points slowly...


    So, the main problem with these changes is that they don't balance the game but they make the rift between small and large guilds worse. However, there are not enough of us who play siege war to hope to come across a guild of your level on a regular basis... Unbalanced wars are painful or uninteresting for both teams.


    Post-Scriptum : If you had been inventive you could have implemented a new kind of guard, let's call it the holy guard, sumoned by a new kind of device, let's call it the holy stone you could buy at the throne. This holy guard prevents all enemy to cap a tower whatever he uses... Let's say that only twelve holy stone could be available for all the hour and each holy guard sumoned last for 5 minutes... The holy guard is twice stronger than the honor guard for example...


    Doing this you'll have solved the invisible fearless taking issues of the end, offered more combinaison of gaming and keep more balance for different kind of teams and classes...


    Why don't you ask players for ideas ? 8o

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

    Edited once, last by Renovatio ().

  • Guild Siege is content designed for end game players, where lower players are able to take part - but must accept the high chance of losing against end game chars/guilds. the tower tap change is something that had to be done in order to stop tap-and-run tactics, and "tapping from under the tower".

    Eigentlich bin ich ein Gnom !


    Unityforce auf Kerub Kadmos


    Wichtl @ Kadmos (††† R.I.P. Zikiel 2021-08 †††)

    Gagh @ Kadmos (††† R.I.P. Kerub 2023-09 †††)

  • Change was needed but we also need to keep content for a number of players as large as possible... This goes through balance.


    You can't make a server live with only whales (+30/T11 gear and +30/T16 weapon)... The big guys need the little !


    Impoverishment leads to boredom and boredom leads to quit. We are so few now... Less than 10 guilds really playing siege at 20h...

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • But let say also the bad things :

    - you should have long before and clearly annonced the changes you planned for we don't choose classes and build gear which are no more usefull or at least loose most of their interest. It is dishonest of you. I know you love make us buy diamants and build things which become unusefull but you should stop with this way of dealing with your faithfull customers...

    Well, it was foreseeable that such a change would come, since it already existed and got rolled back because of some issues. I don't understand what kind of gear became useless now. the rogues who only took invisible towers didn't need special gear.



    about your point of listening to player feedback: those changes were requested several times over the last years by a large number of active people here in the forum (I'm one of them) and i'm glad that these patch finally arrived.



    sw is a multiplayer pvp and so you don't have to kill a guard alone. And even if you're really alone, an average DD who's tos hm ready (which the majority of rom players are now) can kill the big guard with a few buffs within a few seconds. the big guard is weaker than a boss in tos easy!


    on the first day after the patch I needed no 15s for each large guard with an warden alt with very old gear (lvl 98/99 gear).

    with my main char i don't even need to switch to dd-gear and can kill the big guard alone in under 10s in pvp gear.



    if a whole guild fails or the opponent manages to stop the guild from killing, you lose and your points drop. the end result is not that you have unequal fights... on the contrary. after a few weeks you have opponents who are fighting at a similar level and it will be much better than before!


    currently the sw-points say absolutely nothing about the combat power. 90% of the time, having a lot of points means that you can defend your castle well (with a few automated alts) and you are good at taking towers at the end. THIS is what I call boring and unequal battles and I think that's why a lot of pvp players stopped playing rom.



    I am very happy that the patch is there and very grateful for how it is implemented

    i'm looking forward to the sw's in a few weeks, when the points have adapted more to the fighting strength and you finally have more equal fights!

  • My rogue that has zero pantheon stats or lv100 gear or anything over +23 can completely solo siege guards....... If an ENTIRE guild can't do that I don;t even know what to say honestly

    The crying about this patch is unbelievable. It is strait up good fixes all around

  • Es cierto que el cambio beneficia a los gremio top, las guerras no son contenido endgame, llevan muchos años y son para que todo el mundo participe. Ahora mismo estan completamente desequilibradas, no se debe emparajar a gremios con tantas diferencia de puntos como esta pasando, pues no se divierte nadie, ni el endgame, ni el gremio pequeño. Si los endgame se aburren que apreten a gameforge por contenido nuevo, y asi estarán entretenidos algun tiempo. Yo si no puedo entrar a una guerra justa y la puedo pelear en las mismas condiciones que mi rival, no entro, lo veo un timo y una estafa, beneficiar a unos pocos endgame en detrimento de una comunidad para tenerlos contentos...en fin, entro a divertirme y pasar un buen rato, y si esto no es posible aquí habra que buscar alternativas, Diablo 4 esta a la vuelta de la esquina y throne and liberty para despues del verano. Basicamente digo que cuando se hace un cambio se debe de hacer pensando en todos y por eso este cambio en guerras es ERRONEO. Quereis guerras justas, quitarle la velocidad al brujo y bajarle la pegada, haber si asi con mis 500k de vida en war y un 80% de reduccion al daño no me mata de un guantazo!!, os quejais mucho de los picaros, pero todo el mundo puede usar caramelo y pocion de invisibilidad. Quereis mejorar el juego meter un buen balanceo de clases !QUE HACE FALTA!!.Poco me queda por hacer en este juego, 4 cartas contadas para acabar la coleccion, algunos puntos de espiritu y poco mas.


    It is true that the change benefits the top guilds, the wars are not endgame content, they take many years and are for everyone to participate. Right now they are completely unbalanced, guilds with as many difference in points as this is happening should not be paired, because no one has fun, not the endgame, nor the small guild. If the endgames get bored, they should press gameforge for new content, and they will be entertained for a while. If I can't enter a fair war and I can fight it under the same conditions as my rival, I don't enter, I see it as a scam and a scam, benefiting a few endgame to the detriment of a community to keep them happy... anyway , I go in to have fun and have a good time, and if this is not possible here we will have to look for alternatives, Diablo 4 is just around the corner and throne and liberty for after the summer. Basically I am saying that when a change is made it must be done with everyone in mind and that is why this change in wars is WRONG. You want fair wars, slow down the sorcerer and lower his punch, see if that's the case with my 500k life in war and an 80% reduction in damage, it doesn't kill me with a slap!!, you complain a lot about the rogues, but everything the world can use candy and invisibility potion. You want to improve the game by putting in a good balance of classes! WHAT IS NEEDED!! I have little left to do in this game, 4 cards counted to finish the collection, some spirit points and little else.

    El conocimiento nos hará libres!!;)



    Warrior_100 / knight_100 / Scout_100 / Rogue_100 / Mage_60 / Priest_60

  • I answer mostly to Ainz against whom I play regulary... ;-p


    - i do not say the modification was not needed.


    - i do not say siege war is a soloplayer content.


    - there's a great difference between being foreseable and being announced clearly on the forum. It would have cost nothing to annouce it clearly.


    - i do say that it could have been done differently for the same result and seeking to increase the ways to play rather than decrease it...


    - i do say that we are very few really playing siege war (if you don't count the alts guilds 50/50 no fight) and there is many siege, perhaps a majority, where there is a rift of might between guilds that make the game unpleasant even for the mighty ones...


    - and Bakken i do not cry, i just give a reasonable point of view with a proposal to balance the game for everyone...


    - i do say siege war should not be won by a team of two or three warlocks full speed, unkillable, playing against twenty players with small but reasonable gear.


    For the rest of your arguments i presume you evoluate too much in the inner circle of mighty to apprehend what is life in " small " guild... I say " small " not by the number of the players but by the level of the gear...


    In conclusion thanks for your answer. I had a conversation with an old friend coming back to play yesterday after several weeks quitting and who feeled doomed by the change. He plays rogue/knight. I was trying to explain why the big pvp guilds approve the change in the way it has been done, i had already read it on german forum... You have confirmed the point. ;-p


    Now I have to try to convince him building a knight/mage gear rather to stop the game !


    PS : concerning the gear i was thinking of priest/rogue gear made to purge at the end. Well it still have a kind of utility against knight/mage and warlock/champion but it is not so needed at the end.

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

    Edited once, last by Renovatio ().

  • In conclusion thanks for your answer. I had a conversation with an old friend coming back to play yesterday after several weeks quitting and who feeled doomed by the change. He plays rogue/knight. I was trying to explain why the big pvp guilds approve the change in the way it has been done, i had already read it on german forum... You have confirmed the point. ;-p


    Now I have to try to convince him building a knight/mage gear rather to stop the game !


    PS : concerning the gear i was thinking of priest/rogue gear made to purge at the end. Well it still have a kind of utility against knight/mage and warlock/champion but it is not so needed at the end.

    It's sad that the rogue has been demoted to taking towers in the last few years, even though it is a tactically and combatively strong class. I hope that with this patch rogues will be used more for fighting.


    oh and... priest/rogue is one of the most important classes if you want to win a sw; not to take towers, but to make k/m vulnerable.



    - i do say that it could have been done differently for the same result and seeking to increase the ways to play rather than decrease it...


    - i do say that we are very few really playing siege war (if you don't count the alts guilds 50/50 no fight) and there is many siege, perhaps a majority, where there is a rift of might between guilds that make the game unpleasant even for the mighty ones...

    I've read your suggestion, but I don't see how that would be any different. so you could inviscap the whole sw over and at the end you set up stones that prevent exactly that... that sounds to me as if the rogue then become from a "not-fighter-but-win-in-the-last-second" class to a (bad) merit farm class (if you kill the guards first, you'll earn more merit).

    Of course that would have been a way too, but it would still ensure that guilds only run from tower to tower throughout the sw instead of making a strategy on how to defeat opponents by fighting (and yes, that's also possible if you are inferior)




    as it is currently solved, after a short time the points will reflect the combat strength a little more precisely and as soon as this is the case, you will also get small guilds as opponents as a small guild.



    oh and i played many years in small guilds around 800-1500p (Guild Nachtelfen and Confector) and 1200-3000 (Guild Peitschis and Insomnia), so i think i know what i'm talking about :P

  • but it would still ensure that guilds only run from tower to tower throughout the sw instead of making a strategy on how to defeat opponents by fighting (and yes, that's also possible if you are inferior)

    Well i can assure you it is not so easy to defeat you and your pals when we are inferior...


    And even if we succeed at a certain point you have a deadly strategy keeping the two towers near our castle, the time for you to upgrade your defense and attack castle buffs, while we make huge efforts to take back one tower and keep it... Once you're defense and attack level 10 and us not it is finished. You'll probably say to me that we have to fight as a pack with at least a healer but on european server it is kind of babel tower with difficulty to coordinate... The one who speaks serbian tells in german to another who translates in english to a third who translates in polish what have been decided ! (Quite a joke but not so far from truth ! :D)


    as it is currently solved, after a short time the points will reflect the combat strength a little more precisely and as soon as this is the case, you will also get small guilds as opponents as a small guild.

    I hope you're right ! We will see. But i notice two days ago you meet " Stressfrei " guild with something like 600 points while you were the first guild with something like 20 000 points... So theorically yes after a moment you could have balanced wars... but my point is with the few number we are there is not enough variety to ensure balance (except with odd strategy like running :) !

    oh and... priest/rogue is one of the most important classes if you want to win a sw; not to take towers, but to make k/m vulnerable.

    Yes, i build a gear i thought not so bad... I try it against you and i was stunned, silenced, dead most of the time ! Well, we were not so many and my gear is not finished but i feel week as a priest/rogue when i see a big girl warden/warrior running toward me ! I will try to improve it... But at the moment we need rather people for fight than for purge... So i play warlock/champion not so frightening than yours and in slow motion compare to you !

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • you are of course right about the language barrier on the eu servers. I hadn't thought of that and that's a big disadvantage, that's true.



    yes, as far as the allocation of the opponents is concerned, it is unfortunately not sooo good at the moment. generally you get a guild +/-10 ranks above or below you. if you are the highest guild, you can also get a guild 20 ranks below you (as 2nd then 19 ranks, 3rd then 18,...)

    if only 40 guilds register and a 600p guild is the 20th rank, unfortunately a 20kp guild can also be assigned to a 600p guild.

    This allocation used to be good when 100 or more guilds registered, but unfortunately this is often no longer the case. (By the way, that would also be a good new adjustment if you halved the range of possible opponents :) )


    I hope/I strongly assume that some guilds from the 1k range will now get a little higher (2k+) as a result of the change, since there are a few that fight hard but have not played with inviscap so far and other guilds are now slipping under these guilds as a result of the change. i don't think that you'll get an ideal allocation every day, but i assume that you will have exciting fights more often :)



    Quote from Renovatio

    Yes, i build a gear i thought not so bad... I try it against you and i was stunned, silenced, dead most of the time ! Well, we were not so many and my gear is not finished but i feel week as a priest/rogue when i see a big girl warden/warrior running toward me ! I will try to improve it... But at the moment we need rather people for fight than for purge... So i play warlock/champion not so frightening than yours and in slow motion compare to you !

    sorry :P
    the more dangerous an opponent/class is, the higher the priority to stun and kill this char^^ so yeah... if i see an priest/rogue it's my first target :)

  • sorry :P
    the more dangerous an opponent/class is, the higher the priority to stun and kill this char^^ so yeah... if i see an priest/rogue it's my first target :)

    LOL, let's improve my DIYCE :


    if UnitName("target") == "Ainz" then CastSpellByName("purge") end :*


    A good new Item Set Skill could be a skill hiding combo classes !

    "En vérité la Présence était Rose et en forme de Licorne. Mais si puissante était-Elle, que je ne pus la contempler. Aussi, la nommons-nous la Licorne Invisible Rose ; sa présence est trop incommensurable pour que nos faibles yeux la voient et nos faibles esprits la conçoivent. C'est par notre foi que nous savons qu'Elle est Rose, et qu'Elle est une Licorne. Et vraiment ceux qui disent le contraire sont des hérétiques et des infidèles !"

  • i had a guild in SW today at 400 points. even they managed to kill the guards and take the tower.

    unfortunately i wiped them completly afterwards since for me it 50:50 or l kill you. but hey. they got a tower :)))

  • you joke about it, but there are a lot of priests/rogues who do exactly that xD all immuns and invisibility potions are sometimes taken to purge an single player from us xD

  • So, the main problem with these changes is that they don't balance the game but they make the rift between small and large guilds worse. However, there are not enough of us who play siege war to hope to come across a guild of your level on a regular basis... Unbalanced wars are painful or uninteresting for both teams.

    The game is set up to match high-score guilds together and low-score guilds together as much as possible. This thread reminds me of the recent thread where the OP insisted that Macros should be banned from siege because he didn't want to learn how to use them. Endgame players switch guilds. Recruit a couple. Anyone can build good gear. It's about more than diamonds, and if you get enough gold you can buy the refining gems and other things using other peoples' diamonds.

  • I don't have a problem with the changes themselves. I don't think it would have made sense to get rid of the three traps, so I'm glad that didn't work/happen. The buffs thing is great. The drill ground issue was a niche fix. The guards are obvious the most controversial, and I don't think its a perfect solution or perfectly implemented, but there is also nothing outright wrong with it. This is something that could use future tweaks. Otherwise, nothing too problematic with it, it is just different than what the normal has been for a very long time.



    My problem lies with the things they chose to "fix" or change. The buffs staying is a major fix, but other than that... the other three "problems" aren't even close to the most problematic things they could have focused on for siege war. Class balancing is hard and very opinionated, but needs to be addressed in siege at some point. In the mean while, how about something more black and white like the crash buff from the fountain in Varanas? How about skills that can hit through gates and walls and aren't suppose to? No thanks, the drill ground can't be attacked without clicking on it from the middle of it first.

    "CharlieBananas" on the old forums

    Mattyb

    Mage/Knight/Warrior

    Artemis I mean... Aeterna ... Uh... United States server

    Former 'The Black Tower' Co-Leader and Tarrasque Rank

    Current Co-Leader Serenity Guild

    <3

  • So, I need to write a few words here, as a player with

    This is absolutely correct! That change is only apparently a nice thing for the top 5% of active siege war guilds and bad for about 95% of the active siege war guilds.


    With the current change, I predict the following:

    • Guilds with few but stronger players will benefit from the change.
    • Guilds with more but weaker players will have a disadvantage.
    • More than before and therefore most siege wars will be decided within the first 10 minutes. If you can see, that you are stronger than your enemy, it will stay like this until the rest of the siege war. The enemy will realize the same, and many times he will just stop fighting.
    • Therefore, the total combined number of minutes, played by active players in siege war will reduce to at least 20% to 10% within the next month.
    • Siege war do no longer need any strategy. A guild with many players and with the best strategy in the world will always lose against a guild with fewer player with a bit more combat power per player and with absolutely no strategy, as long as that guild has at least a tiny bit of tactics for the next 30 seconds.
    • For each siege war time slot, for each existing guild within the top 20 of active guilds, there will only be at most 2 other guild for which playing the siege war makes any sense. If you are not paired with these two guilds, you will always have a very boring siege war, because it will be either a clear win or a clear lose.
    • Siege war between two weaker guilds (with no stronger players) will mostly be a tie because no towers are captured. Of course, several guilds are strong enough to capture a undefended tower, but not strong enough to capture a tower tiny but of human defense.
    • The total number of active players in siege war will reduce to at least 50% to 25% within the next month.
    • Therefore, as siege war was so far a very attractive thing to many to many payers, I guess that we will lose about 25% to 50% of those players for Runes of Magic completely.


    Guild Siege is content designed for end game players, where lower players are able to take part - but must accept the high chance of losing against end game chars/guilds.

    This is complete nonsense. Focusing on end game players was never a goal nor necessary for the siege war.


    So far guild war has always worked for small guilds and also for weak guilds. If your players were strong enough to kill sphere monsters, you can have a very interesting siege war against another guild which is at the same level.


    Furthermore, there were many pairings where you can have a lots of fun. Combinations like these have always worked:

    • Guild with weak players vs guild with weak players
    • Guild with few players vs guild with many but a bit weaker players

    Both of these combinations are now ruined.


    the tower tap change is something that had to be done in order to stop tap-and-run tactics, and "tapping from under the tower".

    No, it did not had to be done in order to stop that.


    First, tapping a tower is not a problem at all, and instead makes the siege war much more interesting, during the first 59 minutes of the siege war.


    The only problem was, that there are ways to tap a tower in the last minute of the siege war out from invisibility and from quite a distance. There would have been many other ways to stop this problem, which don't ruin the siege war.


    Just for example:

    • If you try to capture a tower within the last minute of the siege war, ALL invisibility buffs are immediately removed.
    • Within the last 3 minutes of the siege war, the range of "eye of wisdom" (which detects invisibility) is increased by a factor of 5.
    • Immunity buffs, damage percentage reduction buffs, and damage absorption buffs can no longer be applied to gates, so a strong guild can actually win a siege war early, even if the enemy does not like this.
    • And there are many more examples.


    Well, it was foreseeable that such a change would come, since it already existed and got rolled back because of some issues. I don't understand what kind of gear became useless now. the rogues who only took invisible towers didn't need special gear.

    If you loose all interest in the siege war, because 90% to 95% of your pairings are boring, then you no longer need gear for siege war. If you have spend real money for improving your PvP gear, then I can understand that this makes you really angry or sad.


    about your point of listening to player feedback: those changes were requested several times over the last years by a large number of active people here in the forum (I'm one of them) and i'm glad that these patch finally arrived.

    And there were always also a large number of active people here in the forum (I'm one of them) which always told you that this ruins the siege war, and was strictly against it.


    And we have already seen the negative impact the last time. The last time, with a similar change, the number of boring siege wars was increasing significantly.


    sw is a multiplayer pvp and so you don't have to kill a guard alone. And even if you're really alone, an average DD who's tos hm ready (which the majority of rom players are now) can kill the big guard with a few buffs within a few seconds. the big guard is weaker than a boss in tos easy!


    on the first day after the patch I needed no 15s for each large guard with an warden alt with very old gear (lvl 98/99 gear).

    with my main char i don't even need to switch to dd-gear and can kill the big guard alone in under 10s in pvp gear.

    You did not get the problem. It is not only about power, it is about time.


    Even if you kill the large guard AND both small guards within 15 seconds, then any warlock has 15 seconds time to run to that tower and do a hit on you. Within that time, because of the fucked up balancing of warlocks and the completely crazy speed of those, a warlock can easily run from the upper right tower of the map to the lower left tower. And back!


    Furthermore, you underestimate how low the dps of average Runes of Magic players is. For those it does not not just take like 10% or 100% longer to kill that guard, it takes 1000% longer, thanks to exponentially combination of effects and burst mechanisms.



    if a whole guild fails or the opponent manages to stop the guild from killing, you lose and your points drop. the end result is not that you have unequal fights... on the contrary. after a few weeks you have opponents who are fighting at a similar level and it will be much better than before!

    This is, where you are wrong. I the past a guild with slightly stronger player that in the opponent guild had to really fight for winning. If you are outnumbered you can't be everywhere and you lose. If you have a really bad strategy you lose. So, you had 60 minutes of exciting fighting, to tell that other guild, you are better.


    Now, all these siege wars are gone. If your guild has the slightly weaker players it will be a clear lose for you, even if your enemy has no strategy and only half the amount of player than your guild. Within 10 Minutes you can learn that, and you could also stop fighting because you already know how the siege war will end.


    Or to make it more clear:

    If in the past you could have a very exiting siege war against 10 guilds stronger than you and against 10 guilds weaker than you, it will now probably only be 2 guilds stronger and 2 guilds weaker. All the other siege wars will now turn into a boring win or boring lose.


    And this will also effect the top 5% of guilds. In the past they could have a lot of fun with a weaker guild, which tries to stress you for 60 minutes, because that guild knew, it had a chance for a win or a draw, if you do some strategic errors. Now, that siege war will always be a sure win. Therefore, in the long run, also the top guilds will have more boring siege wars, and less interesting siege wars. The only fun for them is, their win against weaker players is almost guaranteed.


    What is also kinda annoying is that you cannot capture a tower that has your own teams herald guard nearby.

    Thanks for confirming this bug!


    We also had this situation in one of our siege wars, where a capture was not successful, but it was not completely clear to us if it really was due to our own herald or due to something else. And so far we did not have another chance to test it.


    This is not true for three reasons:


    First, it was not sad, that a rogue was able to take towers. Instead this was making the siege war more interesting and strategic, You did not only have to do brain-dead combat, you also had to develop a strategy how to protect your towers behind the front line. You had to have players do anything about it. The only sad thing was the capture within the last minute. For the other 59 minutes, this was really helping the siege war.


    Second, stating that the rogue was was been demoted to what you write, is complete bullshit. In all of the siege wars I did within the last years the rogues were always participating also in combat.


    Third, if you really think that, taking towers was the only job of rogues, then the rogue would now have NO job anymore. And in such a case your hope, that it will now be used for fighting would not be true. However, the rogue is already used for fighting and it will also be used for fighting in the future, but certainly not much more than it has been doing that before.



    that sounds to me as if the rogue then become from a "not-fighter-but-win-in-the-last-second" class to a (bad) merit farm class (if you kill the guards first, you'll earn more merit).

    Won't happen. Too bad. Too slow. You always have to go into hide after each kill because of the approaching warlock. Even killing killing monsters next to the castle is more efficient than that. A more likely job is killing crystal farming twinks and monster farming players.

    I've read your suggestion, but I don't see how that would be any different. so you could inviscap the whole sw over and at the end you set up stones that prevent exactly that... that sounds to me as if the rogue then become from a "not-fighter-but-win-in-the-last-second" class to a (bad) merit farm class (if you kill the guards first, you'll earn more merit).

    Of course that would have been a way too, but it would still ensure that guilds only run from tower to tower throughout the sw instead of making a strategy on how to defeat opponents by fighting (and yes, that's also possible if you are inferior)

    This is not strategy, it is just combat tactics. It is just a tactic to approach a small group of strong enemies and try to use stuns, slows, roots, silences, cleaning, immune food, your larger number of players and such things, to kill that one group of enemies, until 5 seconds later the other enemy warlock runs into into your group and kills 50% of the people within the first 2 seconds, because all skills are now on cooldown.


    Strategy means, you are doing now things, which will pay off in maybe 10 minutes. You are now building up a defense, which makes using the flying islands near the end impossible. You are now paving the road from the bridge to the tower with about 30 towers, to prevent that later anyone can go that road within faster than 1 minute. You are now preparing the siege weapons, to destroy the enemy gate later in the game. Strategy also means, when the enemy is to strong on one side, you are attacking on the other side, so he has to go back to that other side. Strategy also means, if you outnumber your very strong enemy, which is always running around in one single combat group, you split up into more groups and capture towers faster that he can. Strategy also means, that you find a way how to prevent, that enemies can't get behind front lines, or at least that the non-rogues can't get there.



    There is a reason why there are 6 towers.

    There is a reason why there are - depending on the front line - two, three or four ways towards the enemy castle and not just one single way.

    There is a reason why there are defenses which you can build up.

    There is a reason why there are gates.

    There is a reason why you can destroy buildings inside the castle after destroying a gate.

    There is a reason why there is no win condition, which is depending on how many enemy players you have killed.

    There is a reason why all three win conditions in the siege war are about capturing and/or holding 8 different places on the map.


    And the reason is: Siege war is not only about combat. It is much, much more than that.

    I hope/I strongly assume that some guilds from the 1k range will now get a little higher (2k+) as a result of the change, since there are a few that fight hard but have not played with inviscap so far and other guilds are now slipping under these guilds as a result of the change. i don't think that you'll get an ideal allocation every day, but i assume that you will have exciting fights more often :)

    This tells me, you have long forgotten your 1000 to 2000 point days. In reality there are practically no guilds which do inviscaps below the 2000 points.


    We have played for years in that range and never found one. I didn't even believe they are actually existing for quite a long time. And the few which actually try that in that range can be stopped, if you play with strategy and not only with tactics. They never do the inviscap in a perfect way, and they do too many errors which you can exploit to ruin their last minute capture. And I also have never seen them succeed with more than 3 towers. If we were the stronger guild in combat, we were almost always able to stop them. It is only in the >3000 area where you can find VERY few guilds, which use a last half minute inviscap in a far too perfect way. And even with those guilds we were more often able to keep our win or our draw, when we were clearly in the stronger position.



    i had a guild in SW today at 400 points. even they managed to kill the guards and take the tower.

    unfortunately i wiped them completly afterwards since for me it 50:50 or l kill you. but hey. they got a tower :)))

    Ok, and now assume, we remove everyone from your guild and instead of you, there are only one or two single players, which have about the same combat power as the best players of the 400 points guild, and those one or two players just try to protect the towers in an extremely defensive way. Do you you still think, that 400 point guild would have been able to take any tower? I guess not.



    So, the main problem with these changes is that they don't balance the game but they make the rift between small and large guilds worse. However, there are not enough of us who play siege war to hope to come across a guild of your level on a regular basis... Unbalanced wars are painful or uninteresting for both teams.

    The game is set up to match high-score guilds together and low-score guilds together as much as possible. This thread reminds me of the recent thread where the OP insisted that Macros should be banned from siege because he didn't want to learn how to use them. Endgame players switch guilds. Recruit a couple. Anyone can build good gear. It's about more than diamonds, and if you get enough gold you can buy the refining gems and other things using other peoples' diamonds.

    What you are writing was always happening and is still happening in exactly the same way: High-score guilds and low-score guilds are always matched together (*yes, except that is is some ranks in the list above and below in reality).


    However, this was not the point of Renovatio. The point is, that even within the high-score guilds the one with the slightly better players will now much more likely win against the other high-score guild with the slightly better players than before. And even within the low-score guilds the one with the slightly better players will now much more likely win against the other low-score guild with the slightly better players than before. In the past, these fights were more much more depending on strategy, tactics and number of players, and not so much on gear. Now it is the opposite. Also in the past, no matter whether you were playing in the high-score, medium-score or low-score range, you had a certain number of guilds where you really had to fight, because the win or the lose was not guaranteed, and it was depending on how well you were playing at that day. Now, with that change, that number of guilds, where the result is not known has greatly decreased and you will have much more of those boring fights, where the win or the lose is basically guaranteed.






    I like to emphasize that I wrote the above as someone who did about 90% * 1981 siege wars, which would correspond to over 5 years of every day siege war. And by doing that I made with my guild a huge range of experiences within far below 1000 points and also against the active top10 guilds and I do not only know one side of the ranking. And in contrast to other commenting people here, I have not forgotten how it was to play in the 800 point range with strategy, because it was not already many years ago.

  • My problem lies with the things they chose to "fix" or change. The buffs staying is a major fix, but other than that... the other three "problems" aren't even close to the most problematic things they could have focused on for siege war. Class balancing is hard and very opinionated, but needs to be addressed in siege at some point. In the mean while, how about something more black and white like the crash buff from the fountain in Varanas? How about skills that can hit through gates and walls and aren't suppose to? No thanks, the drill ground can't be attacked without clicking on it from the middle of it first.

    This is so true. All of these things are on the "this is a much bigger problem" list.


    The one thing missing in this list are the immune gates, mainly because of the champ/mage buff, but also other buffs and also heal effects. I think there are like at least 10 to 30 guilds, which regularly attempt to make their gates immune until the end of the siege war, even if they have not even a chance for a draw. In contrast to that there are only like 1 or maybe 2 guilds which are also trying to do last-30-seconds invisibility captures, if they are much weaker.

  • Holy f*** give us a tldr.

    Just a few pointers: what exactly is your wellpraised strategy. Camping in a castle for 55 minutes and then fcapping 4 towers? GG much strategy involved.

    A strategy that can be fullfilled by gatealts that just run on scripts and a few rouges that jump over the mountains?


    It was always laughable that is was possible to take a guarded tower by default because you had a rouge with cicada, immune and complete invis.

    Now that thats not possible everyone starts crying. Cmon just learn to fight.

    You just need to actually beat you opponent now. If thats too much for you, you probably dont deserve to win.

    Now you just need new strategies on how to win. Tower defense is actually useable now since it can prohibit the other side significatly. Instead of a rouge rushing through everything because i am a rouge, that dont matter to me.

    Its known in wars that you usually need a 3:1 ratio in manpower to attack fortified positions. Now work with a rouse. Attract attention to one tower then quickly strike the other.

    Teach your fcap nab rouges to actually fight. My little twink rouge can burn a full tower in like 7 or 8 seconds. So maybe utilize some of their damage?

    Winning by default is a shit strategy. Always was. And its the best thing that happend to SW since i started playing runes.



    Tldr: learn to fight and dont cry because your one winning strategy doesnt work anymore.

  • briefly summarized:

    "tactics" that no longer work:

    • take towers without fighting despite complete inferiority and thus take the fun out of the opponent (and everyone who doesn't exactly take towers).

    tactics that are still possible:

    • fight (as a team!)
    • include the environment, traps and towers
    • play classes that are good against the opponents (k/m>wl/ch>rogue<k/m,...)
    • get the opposing players to split up
    • ...

    you yourself have listed many points that can be used as a strategy in sw and none of them are affected by this change. I don't understand your whole point.


    ONE strategy can no longer be used. a strategy that made all other strategy completely obsolete, since nothing could be done against it. this doesn't mean that you don't need any more strategy... it means that you can't rest on your inviscap rogues, but really have to think about strategies!




    Quote from meisjustme

    You did not get the problem. It is not only about power, it is about time.


    Even if you kill the large guard AND both small guards within 15 seconds, then any warlock has 15 seconds time to run to that tower and do a hit on you. Within that time, because of the fucked up balancing of warlocks and the completely crazy speed of those, a warlock can easily run from the upper right tower of the map to the lower left tower. And back!


    Furthermore, you underestimate how low the dps of average Runes of Magic players is. For those it does not not just take like 10% or 100% longer to kill that guard, it takes 1000% longer, thanks to exponentially combination of effects and burst mechanisms.

    how bakken, Torkilsd, me and many small guilds mentioned or shown in the last few days it doesn't take as long as you think for an average dd


    wardens, rogues, scouts, champs even knights and mages are able to burn those 3 guards within 15 seconds (and i'm not talking about t16+30 guys... i'm talking about guys with t12/t13 +23).


    and again: sw is a multiplayer! if a single wl/ch is strong enough to stop your whole guild from capturing a tower, you're far to weak and you deserve to lose the sw (sorry).




    Quote

    Second, stating that the rogue was was been demoted to what you write, is complete bullshit. In all of the siege wars I did within the last years the rogues were always participating also in combat.


    Third, if you really think that, taking towers was the only job of rogues, then the rogue would now have NO job anymore. And in such a case your hope, that it will now be used for fighting would not be true. However, the rogue is already used for fighting and it will also be used for fighting in the future, but certainly not much more than it has been doing that before.

    I know about 3-4 good rogues in sw and none of them has taken towers invisibly. on the contrary: when a player captures a tower, the rogue has placed himself in front of him and intercepted wl/ch or other opponents.


    but since inviscaps were so popular, hardly anyone even considered playing the rogue to fight. Incidentally, the same would also happen with k/m or other strong classes if they could take 100% towers or had a other save winning method. Many would then no longer play it as a dd/tank, but only abuse it to take towers. Such a possibility puts a completely wrong image of the class in the minds of many (especially smaller guilds).


    for me the rogue is a strong pvp class. Unfortunately, I saw rogues almost every day who didn't even consider fighting because they were busy running from tower to tower for the whole sw.